JVP’s upaadhi kada and upaadhi dan-sel
June 28th, 2007 - Filed Under General
Looks like JVP has come out of its prolonged hibernation. New posters are plastered all over the city, ostensibly by so called ‘Inter University Student Federation’ but don’t we know better?
‘Rata pura upadhi kada vasa damanu!’ they say. No kidding. They want to stop all ‘boutiques that sell degrees’. Will the opposers get the same treatment vice chancellors Prof. Stanley Wijesundera and Prof. Patuwathawithana got? Dunno. On the brighter side, this is better than demanding to stop all those boutiques selling lunch packets. Otherwise, we would starve.
So why this sudden interest? Has JVP suddenly discovered that somebody selling degrees on the road side as one would sell string hoppers? Or is this the (n+1)th new phase of their age old battle against the private investments in the education sector?
Bulk of JVP MPs (except a handful like Sunil Handunnetthi) have never seen a university lecture room, unless they have dropped in when raining. Lots of them are O/L dropouts who could not complete their education. They are ‘ata-pass’ only because there was no examination at Grade 8. So one would wonder why these good gentlemen have such a keen interest in university education.
Anyway, these are few other questions that come to the mind of anyone. Publishing them here does not mean anybody expect JVP to answer them.
o Why this protest only against ‘selling tertiary education’? Why not demand all ‘boutiques that sell education’ (be it school education, diplomas, vocational training etc) be closed? Doesn’t JVP know that more than 75% of the school children in Sri Lanka now attend private tuition classes?
o What is wrong in private investments in education when it is clear the state cannot provide quality university education to all the students that rightly deserve it?
o If JVP wants the degree boutiques (upaadhi kada) to be closed, what do they want upaadhi dan-sel, the service sector version of what we see for vesak and poson? What guarantee JVP has on the quality of the education provided by these upaadhi dan-sels?
o When they formed the ‘sandhaanaya’ government with the PA in 2004, JVP promised the people of this country (by their ‘rata perata’ manifesto) that they would uplift the university education and especially start new six universities. May we ask what happened to these six universities? Did bahiravaya ate them all?
o What right JVP and opposition political party, to demand to stop any legitimate and ethical business run by somebody? Will they tomorrow demand all boutiques that see lunch packets to be closed?
(Contributed by a guest writer. Open for discussion)
Yasaruwan
June 28th, 2007 at 5:43 pm
I’m ok with the private universities but I think this article is more suitable for a anti-JVP blog or a forum. Because JVP is not the only political party with this policy. For example this was in the Mahinda Chinthanaya. There are so many other political parties who claims that they oppose the idea of private universities.
So if you are talking about education you have to blame all those parties including mahinda chinthanaya. If you only blame JVP we have to think this is just another political approach to get down them. If this is a real education forum talk about all of them.
JustMal
June 28th, 2007 at 5:49 pm
Needless to say, I’ve always been strongly critical of JVP’s policy in regard to liberalisation and depoliticisation of tertiary education, but I don’t think it’s true to say that their members are high school dropouts. I’m quite certain that ‘most’ of their MPs have been to university, and so have ‘many’ of the members from other major parties (with the exception of TNA perhaps) in the parliament. There were many of these so-called “ata-paas” ministers in Premadasa’s cabinet, but thankfully not any more.
I mostly agree with the writer’s contentions, but keep that mud off your hands - it’s making you look bad. I think JVP’s position on this matter stems from the class related insecurity of the working-class rural youth in our state universities who dominate the intellectual cadre of the JVP.
While I am all for private universities and colleges, they must be up to the standard. There are indeed many shady private institutes in Sri Lanka who offer unaccredited degrees from obscure foreign universities. These surely don’t meet the criteria of “legitimate and ethical businesses” that are exempt from scrutiny by our lawmakers.
Student in Govt Uni.
June 29th, 2007 at 12:34 am
Every year when a fresh batch of students enter a University ..the IUSF and their reps in Universities manage to drum up support, and go to town with some slogans. I Think it’s a part of their recruitment process in Universities which, in the past has proven that IUSF is really a front for the JVP. The IUSF thrives in Universities where they have a free hand in governing the student councils, and the law of the Jungle prevails (i.e. ragging included) This is primarily because their is NO organized opposition to their actions. Most University Administrators prefer to keep problems swept under the carpet (”Our University is not closed”. “We have no Ragging” - are usually the sort of themes which are said by these people.).
However, moving onto the topic, Although the IUSF agenda is different, I agree with JustMal(Comment #2) in that UNACCREDITED Degrees is a big problem in this country - We have a plethora of mushroom organisations which are not only catering for Degrees - but for MBAs/M.Sc as well - which sadly are not regulated as far as I know. (I don’t think the UGC has any say in them). Its high time that some Government Regulator be appointed to check on them
If anyone thinks that we don’t have unaccredited degrees here - look no further than the following two links
http://www.acusa.net/newsdetail.php?id=510
http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/accreditation.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Central_University
The Links will provide one sufficient information to conclude that Local Organizations can be duped by these Foreign “Universities”
Gajaba
July 4th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
In developed countries like USA or UK or Australia, even the poorest student can get a quality education from a state university or get substantial financial assistance to get into the most expensive private universities.
In a developing country like Sri Lanka, private universities are detrimental because there is no way the poor, but bright students get into private univesities.
“We have good goverment universities, so what’s the matter?”, one may ask.
Private universities, with their more income, can attract best professors from government universities. Over a period of time, this results in second-rated professors left in government universities. This results in the poor, but bright students getting second class education while the rich get the best education. This in turn closes employment opportunities for poorer students graduated from government universities while opening doors to rich students graduated from private universities. This in turn increases the difference between the rich and the poor, making it even harder for the poor the climb up the social ladder. The difference of the rich and the poor widens!
Gajaba
July 4th, 2007 at 5:16 pm
(ctd..)
On the other hand, boutiques selling lunch packets have no such detrimental effects. In fact, it helps narrow the gap between the poor and the rich by making an opportunity for the poor to earn an income, perhaps selling lunch packets to the rich.
As the other commentators pointed out, the writer’s ambition appears to have been “Bashing the JVP” unnecessarily comparing ’boutiques selling lunch packets’ to private universities.
Gajaba
July 4th, 2007 at 5:26 pm
(ctd..)
What is need is a constructive criticism exploring the possibilities of limited private intake to public universities thereby increasing overall financial strength of the universities that benefits both rich and poor students. Blind “JVP Bashing” like this serves no useful purpose.
Tuk Tuk Driver
July 5th, 2007 at 7:46 am
Gajaba says: Private universities, with their more income, can attract best professors from government universities.
Is this the reality? Let me highlight following points.
(a) Even now the vast majority of the competent Sri Lankan academics are not working at local universities. The packages they can get here are peanuts so naturally they have flown for greener ventures abroad.
(b) If there are private universities, they can pay well, so they will bring at least some of the Diaspora academics back. In addition the private universities can also attract good Indian and foreign academics. (Just like Apollo hospital brings Indian doctors)
(c) Private investments in banking sector did not result in a mass exodus of bankers from state banks to private banks. If so most of the top level staff in Seylan and Sampath Banks should be ex-state bankers. However if you do a profile analysis you will find out that the majority of the senior banker working in the private sector were not from state banks. Ditto for healthcare sector. Why education sector is different?
So it is baseless saying private universities will attract current staff in the state universities. On the other hand the academics in state universities will be able to bargain for higher salaries and privileges in a more competitive environment.
TRhen Gajaba says: What is need is a constructive criticism exploring the possibilities of limited private intake to public universities thereby increasing overall financial strength of the universities that benefits both rich and poor students.
Good in the book. But it will never work.
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 12:55 pm
Tuk Tuk driver says Private Universities WILL attract back local academics who had emigrated. According to Tuk Tuk driver, these academics must be willing to return on a LESS salary than they get now. Contradictingly, Tuk Tuk driver says academics already getting peanuts in Public universities WILL NOT join local private universities seeking HIGHER salaries! This itself is self contradiction.
What will happen is those academics wanted to stay in Sri Lanka will happily join the private universities for their higher salaries.
Unlike what the Tuk Tuk driver wants to believe, this does not happen overnight. Academics in top government universities will not leave their positions overnight. A professor in University of Moratuwa has much more social value than a Professor in ACBT, therefore, there is no way a professors of university of moratuwa joining ACBT next day. However, during a long period of time, eventually the cream of the government universities join the private universities for their higher benefits.
Tuk Tuk driver takes the health sector as an example! So, does the Tuk Tuk driver say Appollo and Nawaloka has the same quality as an average public hospital?
When privatised, the same happens to public universities. After a period, public universities become second-rated universities and it will be choice of those who cannot afford to go to top private universities.
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
(ctd)
In case of the hospital, the poor who receive second rated care(from public hospitals) and the rich who receive the top rated care (from private hospitals) will move on and there is no significant risk for the poor to lose further opportunities in their lives.
However, this is completely different when it comes to education. The rich who receive the top rated education from top private universities will get into high positions while the poor who received second rated education will have to settle for lower positions. See, this risk does not exist in establishing private hospitals.
Tuk Tuk driver, your children will be Tuk Tuk drivers too, if this system is enacted.
Tuk Tuk driver commented about limited private intake to public universities:
“Good in the book. But it will never work. ”
Tuk Tuk driver should consult a university student about the repeated success of private courses conducted in public universities ;-). University of Moratuwa conducts signigicant numbers of private courses ranging from certificate courses to masters degrees.
This model has been a success abroad. For instance, all public universities in USA and Australia have a limited private intake. The revenue raised is spent in improving the universities that benefit both rich and the poor alike, leaving no social injustice for the poor.
Apparently, the Tuk Tuk driver has no comments about the JVP BASHING in the original article!
JustMal
July 5th, 2007 at 1:45 pm
Gajaba, who in the world told you that the even the poorest student can get a quality education from a state university in Australia and elsewhere. I hope it wasn’t the leader of your local IUSF chapter. In Australia, education is not free at all. Students have to pay the cost of their education back to the government after they finish uni and get a job. Laugh.
This is not a socialist utopia. If students whose parents work hard and can afford to pay for their children to study in a private univerisity, can get a better education than those idiots who live on Samurdhi and Mahapola and whatever and whose parents drink Kasippu and have no respect for their childrens’ education - then so be it. You could say that poor children can’t afford to buy good food and hard working people buy good food for their children so we should ban all the private shops and sell punnakku to everyone from Sathosa. Laugh..
My parents have spent millions of rupees on my education and they didn’t do that by stealing from the government or the people. I’m sure there are hundreds of thousands of hardworking middle class people who can’t afford to send their children to overseas universities and have to see these jeppas get into state universities with A-level scores substantially less than their children and if having their tax money to pay for these idiots’ education was not enough now they even have to pay them to get government jobs because no private employer wants to give them a job. Laugh.
Capitalism may have its drawbacks, but it’s the best option available to us. A compromise may be to partially privatise the state universities so that they can admit fee paying students as well as the “free education” Jeppas who live on Mahapola and Samurdhi. That would prevent the potential brain drain to private unis and state unis will get more funding from the new students which will make the standards better.
Mahinda should bring back the Michelin man to deal with JVP and IUSF.
Tuk Tuk Driver
July 5th, 2007 at 2:19 pm
Gajaba,
You look like a JVP hardcore supporter. You are so away from reality. (typical JVP!)
First you suffer from an illusion that we have so many competent academics at local universities. Apart from some in the Medical and some (not all) disciplines in Engineering what we have is a set of baboons who only know nothing but dictating their undergraduate notes to the students. So even if these baboons move to private sector (I do not think any private university will take them) that will not do any harm.
Secondly you are under the illusion currently the state universities provide a quality education. All I have to ask is why the hell the graduates have to protest in front of education ministry asking for jobs if they receive such a quality education. (www.educationforum.lk/2007/07/annual-batch-trip-to-isurupaya)
So don’t worry the state universities already suck and there is nothing more could happen to them.
Private investment in education should and will happen whatever you or your JVP political masters say.
That is all I have to say.
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 3:51 pm
JustMal said: “In Australia, education is not free at all. Students have to pay the cost of their education back to the government after they finish uni and get a job. Laugh.”
Justmal, did I ever say education in Australia is FREE? I am afraid, it looks like the millions of rupees your parents spent on your education is wasted; you even lack the basics of reading ability. Read again what I wrote. I even did not use the word ‘FREE’.
I have in fact studied in Australia and I am very well aware of HECS and PELS schemes. In Australia, regardless how poor a student is, substantial financial assistance is available to study any top university - public or private. The same applies the US.
True that the goverment cannot be a socialist utopia. But it is a foremost duty of the government to bridge the gap between the rich and the poor. In Sri Lanka, making a top class university education available to the poor is a definite way to get them out of poverty.
Service of Public Hospitals are second rated compared to Private hospitals.
Service of Public Banks are second rated compared to Private Banks.
However, none of these prevent the career opportunities of the poor. The poor can get second class service from public hospitals and banks, but currently they get the TOP CLASS education from Public universities purely based on merit.
If Private universities are establised, over a period, with their high salaries, they can attract the best academics who would have otherwise stayed in the public universities. This inturn results the second rated education for the poor in public universities, CLOSING them the opportunities for top class employment. This in turn creates a vicious cycle that children of our Tuk Tuk driver will have no option than to become Tuk Tuk drivers!
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 4:05 pm
TUK TUK Driver,
You said: ” You look like a JVP hardcore supporter. You are so away from reality. (typical JVP!
“.
I should say you look like the author of this article who is now desperate to cover up your big holes in your harangue.
Next time you take a hire from a university student, please ask how the private courses are successfully conducted in public universities. University of Moratuwa has been conducting large number of private courses which has been success story. These courses range from one-day workshops to certicate courses to masters degrees. It is a pity that you know nothing about this, and decide yourself that this scheme does not work!
Service of private hospitals like Nawaloka, Apollo, Asiri are top rated compared to government hospitals.
Similarly, after a period of time, education of private universities will top rated and government universities will be second-rated.
This creates the situation where the poor can only get a second class education. With this second class education, the poor has LIMITED opportunities to enter high positions. The gap between the poor and the rich widens. Your children cannot afford to go to top private universities. They will end up becoming TUK-TUK drivers too. Is that what you want?
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 4:34 pm
JUSTMAL,
You said: “A compromise may be to partially privatise the state universities so that they can admit fee paying students as well”
Read what I wrote. This is exactly what I said on this thread. I also gave example of how this is partly already done in University of Moratuwa. This method is working successfully in countries like USA, Canada, Australia etc. This is an approach we should explore further.
That is main reason I criticied this article. This article has ZERO constructive criticism. This article fails to examine the possibility of a private intake to public universities. Rather, the author of this article is hell bent on JVP bashing which serves no useful purpose.
Surprisingly, our TUK-TUK driver then comes to defend the author of this article by saying “Private Intakes to public universities will never work”! Little he knows about the already existing and successful private courses in public universities.
There is no point in JVP/UNP/SLFP or LTTE bashing in this forum. please find somewhere else for your political whims and fancies.
Tuk Tuk Driver
July 5th, 2007 at 4:37 pm
Gajaba the jeppa,
So why only public universities? Why not public restaurants? (which gives free meals) Why not public newspaper stalls? (that give newspapers for free) Why not public super markets (which gives consumer otems for free) Why not public petrol sheds? (which issue free petrol)
Ane paw. How come the poor of this country even buy kerosene now since their prices are increased? So why not give them kerosene for free?.
What is wrong with this country is our population is so much used to eating ‘pin buth’ they do not ever want to pay for something. They think they can just wait till the government not only provide them ‘pin buth’ but spoon feed the same. That is all what your political masters in JVP want.
Man, even to use a toilet now you have to pay. So why only give education free to anybody and put the burden on tax payers? Is the JVP that provide this money from their party funds?
Man, don’t be so stupid. Accept the reality. You cannot run a country forever with the ‘pin buth’ system. Education is an industry and that has to catch on. You cannot provide ‘pin buth education’ for ever for everybody. (Though you might like to remain as a ‘pin batha’).
Even now only 2% of the student population receives higher education. Educating 2% will not bridge the gap between rich and poor. Only JVP have such unrealistic stupid dreams. We need to educate and look after the 98% of the rest.
If you want to support poor students give them scholarships or vouchers as they given in other countries. Do not ruin the entire education system because of that.
Sri Lanka is the only country which has this type of ‘pin buth education’ system and it is why our graduates are so low quality. (Can’t even get a job for Rs. 6,000 per month)
There are very successful private education systems in countries and that had not ruined the quality of their education system.
If you want to run this ‘pin buth kada’ forever first tell us from where you find the money for that. In contrast to JVP lunatic thinking, Sri Lankan is not US or Australia and we do not have money to give ‘pin buth’ ever.
Pin bathas of JVP will continue to shout, I am sure, but that should not prevent the government from starting privae education institutions.
Tuk Tuk Driver
July 5th, 2007 at 4:48 pm
Gajaba,
You say: University of Moratuwa has been conducting large number of private courses which has been success story.
Fundamentally there is no difference between a state university providing courses for fees or a private university doing it. Anyway, the students (or their parents) have to pay.
However, the reason why the state universities (including Moratuwa University) do this type of courses is to find extra buck for the poorly paid academics. This will not solve the problems currently in the education system. Also they can cater to only a small percentage of students.
Neither these activities will help the growth of education as an industry.
What we need today is not this type of temporary ‘kirala moodi’ measures but large scale reforms which actively encourages private investments in higher education (and if necessary privatisation of state universities) to open the doors of education to a larger number of students.
On the face of it, this will look like closing the doors of higher education for poor students, but in a developing market system it will not happen. Market is always pro-poor. So development of market is the most pro poor act we can take. That is the beauty of capitalism.
I am not surprised the jeppas do not understand that. They are always a set of frogs living in a well, so how come they understand the beauty of market economy?
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 4:52 pm
TUK TUK driver,
Now you have resorted to your “professional language”
This is the style most TUK TUK drivers practice when get agitated 
Read what I wrote; I already explain private hospitals, restaurents, boutiques, etc has no bearing effect to widen the poor-rich gap. While all these exist even today, the poor can get the top class education from the public universities.
Establish private universities and ruin that opportunity — is that what you want?
As I have told you before, you have ZERO knowledge of how public universities conduct private courses in Sri Lanka. Next time you go to a hire in Katubedda, ask a university student about private courses. Perhaps there will be TUK-TUK driver course for you to enroll!
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
TUK TUK driver,
You said: “On the face of it, this will look like closing the doors of higher education for poor students, but in a developing market system it will not happen. Market is always pro-poor. So development of market is the most pro poor act we can take. That is the beauty of capitalism.”
TUK-TUK driver, it appears that your beauty of capitalism is not understood even by the developed countries like Australia, NZ, USA or Canada.
Why the hell GOVERNMENTS of these DEVELOPED countries give financial assistance in the forms of low interest loans or waiving the university fees? Why not let the “beauty of capitalism” handle this? May be they are not as enlightened as our TUK TUK driver is!
Mister, according to your ‘beauty of capitalism’ theory, do you see the poor going to Appollo hospital?
Tuk Tuk Driver
July 5th, 2007 at 5:03 pm
Gajaba the jeppa,
You say: I already explain private hospitals, restaurants, boutiques, etc has no bearing effect to widen the poor-rich gap.
You are wrong. All these are providing PRIVATE GOODS. (Ever heard the term? I doubt) Education too, specially the university education is a PRIVATE GOOD. A state cannot and should not provide PRIVATE GOODS. (Only jeppas think so due to their lack of knowledge) Role of the state is only to provide PUBLIC GOODS.
Go to schools and learn the difference. Don’t show your stupidity here.
You also have not answered my question from where we find money to provide ‘pin buth’ for all.
It is hilarious like ata-pass jeppas trying to educate others.
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 5:05 pm
TUK TUK driver,
[Fundamentally there is no difference between a state university providing courses for fees or a private university doing it. Anyway, the students (or their parents) have to pay.]
Fundamentally, there is BIG DIFFERENCE.
The BIG DIFFERENCE is, both the poor and rich students are benefited with this type of system.
This extra income supplement not only the salaries but also help buy new equipment. The Computer Science & Engineering department purchased a new load of computers from the income from private courses they conduct. This benefit goes to both the rich and poor students alike.
Isn’t it a pity that a TUK TUK driver who knows nothing about this, talks about education reforms?
Tuk Tuk Driver
July 5th, 2007 at 5:05 pm
Gajaba,
You ask: Why the hell GOVERNMENTS of these DEVELOPED countries give financial assistance in the forms of low interest loans or waiving the university fees?
I have nothing against governments giving financial assistance to needy students, in the form of loans or vouchers or scholarships. I have said that clearly in my earlier posts.
What I am against is running education as a STATE MONOPOLY.
Understood?
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 5:08 pm
TUK TUK driver,
You said: “Role of the state is only to provide PUBLIC GOODS.”
Mister, this shows how ignorant you are.
Have you ever heard of the social security systems in DEVELOPED countries like the USA, CANADA, AUSTRALIA, NZ? Don’t they provide public goods?
Tuk Tuk Driver
July 5th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
Gajaba the jeppa,
Please do not talk nonsense. I think you are not just a JVP supporter but is related to Wimal Weerawansa. Only they can say rubbish like this.
Let me repeat what I have said. Fundamentally there is no difference between a state university providing courses for fees or a private university doing it. Anyway, the students (or their parents) have to pay.
You also ask: Mister, according to your ‘beauty of capitalism’ theory, do you see the poor going to Apollo hospital?
This is where exactly jeppas fail to understand the simple logic.
Poor does not go to Appolo hospital. But the launch of Appolo hospital has not prevented from poor getting a good treatment from Colombo General Hospital.
So why should it differ in education?
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
TUK TUK DRIVER,
Mister, according to your ‘beauty of capitalism’ theory, do you see the poor going to Appollo hospital?
Tuk Tuk Driver
July 5th, 2007 at 5:11 pm
Gajaba,
Please define wht you mean by ‘public goods’.
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
TUK TUK driver,
[Poor does not go to Appolo hospital. But the launch of Appolo hospital has not prevented from poor getting a good treatment from Colombo General Hospital.
So why should it differ in education? ]
Mister, this shows how poor your understanding is.
Do you think Appolo hospital and Kebithigollewa hospital provide the same level of service?
If private universities are enacted, the same happens to public universities. Like public hospitals, public universities will be known for second rated service. Is this what you want?
Tuk Tuk Driver
July 5th, 2007 at 5:14 pm
Gajaba,
He. He. He. I know exactly the arguments what you jeaaps can come with and I have asnwers.
That is how the question you raise in post No. 24 is already answered in post No. 23.
Tuk Tuk Driver
July 5th, 2007 at 5:19 pm
Gajaba the jeppa,
Do you think Apollo hospital and Kebithigollewa hospital provide the same level of service?
Who talked about Kebithigollawa hospital. I talked about Colombo General Hospital. Don’t you know Colombo general hospital provide healthcare services for free? (I am not surprised. Jeppas lack knowledge seriously)
Man, I do not have time to argue with stupid jeppas like you.
If you want to give ‘pin buth’ to everyone first you tell me from where a poor country like Sri Lanka find money for that?
Will we get money from your appochchi’s budale?
Answer that first.
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 5:19 pm
TUK-TUK DRIVER,
You said: “Fundamentally there is no difference between a state university providing courses for fees or a private university doing it. Anyway, the students (or their parents) have to pay.”
See how naive this logic is!
I already gave an example. CSE department of UoM purchased a new load of computers from funds collected from private intake. This benefit goes to both rich and poor.
On the other hand, if this money went to ACBT, only rich students in ACBT are benefitted. Don’t you even understand this bit?
You said: “Market is always pro-poor”
Idiot! Do you see Apollo is pro-poor? DO you see the poor being treated in Apollo? Don’t talk nonsense.
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 5:21 pm
TUK_TUK driver,
You said: “Will we get money from your appochchi’s budale?”
IDIOT, what I am suggesting is to find this money from private intake. Can’t you even understand this? Read again and again.
Tuk Tuk Driver
July 5th, 2007 at 5:25 pm
Gajaba the jeppa,
First answer my two questions first.
(a) How do you define ‘public goods’?
(b) How can a country like Sri Lanka find money to provide ‘pin buth’ for all
You say: CSE department of UoM purchased a new load of computers from funds collected from private intake. This benefit goes to both rich and poor.
This type of cross subsidy is not only illogical but unfair. Why should the private students cross subsidie the ’state’ students who might come from the same backgrounds? (Are all students in the state universities come from poos homes?)
You said: “Market is always pro-poor”
Do you see Apollo is pro-poor?
Man, you are such an idiot, you cant even read properly. I said MERKET is pro poor. I did not say Apollo is pro poor. He. He. He. What made you think Market is Apollo?
Tuk Tuk Driver
July 5th, 2007 at 5:27 pm
Gajaba the jeppa,
You say: I am suggesting is to find this money from private intake. Can’t you even understand this? Read again and again.
I understand very well. It is called cross subsidy.
The question is:
(a) how fair the cross subsidy is? (please see my post 31)
(b) How far the cross subsidy can help
You did not answer the question number one.
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 5:32 pm
TUK TUK DRIVER,
You asked:
“(a) How do you define ‘public goods’?”
IDIOT, if you even do not know this bit, don’t talk about it. Why not read and understand the difference between public and private good before talking about it?
“(b) How can a country like Sri Lanka find money to provide ‘pin buth’ for all”
Public universities are to find additional funds from private intake. This is how public universities of USA, UK, CANADA, AUSTRALIA, NZ operate.
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 5:38 pm
TUK-TUK,
You said “This type of cross subsidy is not only illogical but unfair. Why should the private students cross subsidize the ’state’ students who might come from the same backgrounds?”
BIG IDIOT. How fair for the state collect higher tax from hard working businessmen and professionals and spend on the “pin batha”? Poh! Have you ever heard of social welfare systems in developed countries? Have you heard of USA and AUSTRALIA giving financial assistance and subsidies to farmers from the money collected from hard working professionals?
You surely deserver nothing other than riding a TUK-TUK!
Tuk Tuk Driver
July 5th, 2007 at 5:41 pm
Gajaba the jeppa,
If you do not know what a PUBLIC GOOD is please have a look at wikipedia. All jeppas are big idiots living in the well. There is nothing to be embarassed about that.
In the second issue, I have already raised the issues with subsidies. I am not talking about the developed countries. I am talking about Sri Lanka, where there is no developed industrial sector like USA, UK, Canada or Australia etc to cross subsidise ‘pin buth’ education.
So please explain how to do that.
Don’t worry of you cannot all jeppas are big talkers but they never do any real work. They talked about ‘dahaska maha wev’ but ultimetaley did not even cleaned a small ‘wathura wala’.
Please do not feel embarrassed. All jeppas are idiots. So there is nothing wrong with you.
Tuk Tuk Driver
July 5th, 2007 at 5:44 pm
Gajaba the jeppa,
Don’t repeat the same questions I have responded, just because you have run out of arguments.
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 5:47 pm
TUK-TUK,
You said: “I am talking about Sri Lanka, where there is no developed industrial sector like USA, UK, Canada or Australia etc to cross subsidise ‘pin buth’ education”
What a born idiot you are. I already showed you examples as to how CSE department of UoM become a success story by finding private funds through private intake. The same successful approach is taken by CIVIL and TEXTILE departments for years. These are working systems with results, IDIOT!
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 5:49 pm
TUK-TUK,
If it is wrong to spend funds earned from private students on public students, it is ALSO wrong to spend TAX collected from hardworking professionals and businessmen on the poor!
Sujata
July 5th, 2007 at 5:51 pm
Equity in education at all levels is valued more than equity in healthcare, food or fuel etc. To me, the dialogue clearly shows that. It might be true anywhere in the world, but why is that in Sri lanka we seem to think that equity in access higher education delivery of educational services by state institutions (i.e. equity in access higher education is possible if and only if educational services are delivered exclusively by state institutions)
but then somewhere I saw the two lines that rhymed as follows:
Service of Public Hospitals are second rated compared to Private hospitals.
Service of Public Banks are second rated compared to Private Banks.
Why not accept the next obvious and say
Service of public universities are second rated compared to private universities
Services of any government agency is likely to be second-rated to private equivalents
For fifty or more years we have seen this. We have watched our state and the government robbing people instead of providing services. During that time the Soviet people paid the price to demonstrate further. The Chinese have seen and learned. So have the Vietnamese. For some reason not in this little island.
If anybody really cares about the poor they should be out on the streets asking their governments to get out of service delivery business and put the money in the hands of the poor and let them choose. Universities should compete for the students, not students for universities. Now University of Kelaniya get its budget line no matter what. For studying hard and getting 4As or whatever, let the students get vouchers in their hands (equivalent of current cost per student at a public university) , and let the public universities compete with each other and the privates for those vouchers. Let the students and parents decide, e.g., whether it is SLIIT or U of Kelaniya for the IT program for them?
Tuk Tuk Driver
July 5th, 2007 at 5:54 pm
Gajaba the jeppa,
Man, stupidly has a limit. You have unfortunately crossed that. I am sorry. Anyway I am not surprised that a jeppa behaving in this manner.
Anyway, I do not think there is no way an intelligent conversation can be continues with somebody with such a low level of intelligence so bye.
I can make any bet that you re a product of a local ‘pin buth’ university. (That is if you have ever gone to a university)
Does not know what public goods are, does not know what the market is, Thinks some minor ‘plaster’ solutions can be applied at national level…
Man, why don’t you go to school back and learn?
Bye.
Tuk Tuk Driver
July 5th, 2007 at 5:57 pm
Gajaba the jeppa,
I wanted to retire but then I saw this.
If it is wrong to spend funds earned from private students on public students, it is ALSO wrong to spend TAX collected from hardworking professionals and businessmen on the poor!
Exactly my point. This is what I was saying all the time. Mininise cross subsidies.(See, how long you took to understand that. You should be a real tube light.)
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 5:57 pm
SUJATHA,
You said: “Universities should compete for the students, not students for universities.”
This can be implemented by allowing a private intake to public universities, as happen in most developed countries. For instance, universities can compete for the private intake. When the univesity makes more money, it is spent on the university; they results are enjoyed BOTH the rich and the poor.
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
TUK TUK DRIVER,
You said: “Exactly my point. This is what I was saying all the time. Mininise cross subsidies.(See, how long you took to understand that. You should be a real tube light.) ”
This shows what an idiot you are! The whole TAX system is a subsidy and practiced by ALL COUNTRIES. Those businessmen and professionals who work hard subsidize everything for those who do not. You must be a real idiot not to realize that. It is the same principle that applies when public universities are funded from private intake.
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 6:06 pm
TUK-TUK,
Like the author of this article, all your writing is about “Jeppa” & “JVP”. What is so wrong about you?
Can’t you see I never referred to any political party UNP or SLFP or JVP? This is not place to satisfy your political whims and fancies. If you have a problem with JVP, find somewhere else.
Instead, all your rantings are about Jeppas! Hah Hah ha
Tuk Tuk Driver
July 5th, 2007 at 6:12 pm
Gajaba the tube light,
You say: It is the same principle that applies when public universities are funded from private intake.
Man, this is exactly what I said in my post no. 16 “Fundamentally there is no difference between a state university providing courses for fees or a private university doing it. Anyway, the students (or their parents) have to pay.”
See what a tube light you are. How many posts you took to understand that?
However, the differences are:
(a) In the model you suggest it is the students who are taxed (in contrast to the companies in the other model) Is this fair? Do you approve taxing students?
(b) Your model has its limitations. You cannot expect ‘private’ students to cross subsidise a large number of public students.
That is why we need private universities and that is why we need education industry to grow.
Understand?
Please do not feel embarrassed. I know it takes you some time to understand. (At least if you have understood now, it is a relief for me. That proves you are not a complete idiots as other jeppas, after all!)
Tuk Tuk Driver
July 5th, 2007 at 6:14 pm
Gajaba the tube light,
If you have ever gone to a local university (you may not) you should know in the campus lingo ‘jeppa’ or even ‘JVP’ refers to a phenomenon than to a mere political party…
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 6:16 pm
TUK-TUK the idiot,
You asked: “(a) Is this fair? Do you approve taxing students?”
DO you approve TAXING at all? All countries do TAXING and subsidize for the poor.
You said: “(b) Your model has its limitations. You cannot expect ‘private’ students to cross subsidise a large number of public students.”
Mister, if this has limitations, your system has BIG LIMITATIONS. The poor cannot enter the expensive top private universities. So, don’t be embarrased. TAX is a practice that happens around the world. There is nothing wrong in public universities raising funds from private intake.
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 6:20 pm
TUK-TUK
You said: “If you have ever gone to a local university (you may not) you should know in the campus lingo ‘jeppa’ or even ‘JVP’ refers to a phenomenon than to a mere political party…”
IDIOT, don’t talk pure steaming bullshit. This article talks about the JVP political party. Read 100 times and you will realise
Didn’t you talk about Wimal Weerawansha? He must be phenomina to you as well?
This my advise to you. This is not place for your JVP bashing. This is place to discuss education reforms. So, practice your nonsense somewhere else!
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 6:23 pm
TUK-TUK,
You said: “Man, this is exactly what I said in my post no. 16 “Fundamentally there is no difference between a state university providing courses for fees or a private university doing it. Anyway, the students (or their parents) have to pay.”
IDIOT, you must be not a tube light, but a burnt-out light that can never glow! I showed you the difference so many times. Yes, it is parents who pay the fee. But where does the fee go to? That is where the differene is, idiot!
Tuk Tuk Driver
July 5th, 2007 at 6:24 pm
Gajaba the tube light,
You ask: DO you approve TAXING at all?
Not many people like taxing, but it is inevitable. I prefer governments taxing firms rather than students. (like you want to)
You say: The poor cannot enter the expensive top private universities.
Why not? There can be scholarship or voucher schemes. (Anyway the idea of having private universities is NOT to educate poor. Only JVP has such funny thinking. Private universities are there to educate RICH, not poor, you idiot.)
Man, this is enough. I have wasted so much of time because of your stupidity. This is not fair. I cannot continue to educate you for ever for free. I am a capitalist, so in future if you want to learn from me please pay be beforehand.
It is essential that we break the state monopoly in university education in Sri Lanka and the only way we can do that is by starting private universities. That will happen one day whatever the JVP says. Market always wins. JVP loses.
Bye.
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 6:30 pm
TUK TUK IDIOT,
You said: “You ask: DO you approve TAXING at all? Not many people like taxing, but it is inevitable. I prefer governments taxing firms rather than students.”
IDIOT, whether you like it or not, all countries do TAXING.
So, don’t WHINGE about public universities finding extra funds from private intake. University of Colombo and University of Moratuwa are success stories of this approach. These universities conduct so many private courses and the extra funds they receive are spent back on the university and academics. The benefit is enjoyed by BOTH POOR and RICH.
You said: “I am a capitalist, so in future if you want to learn from me please pay be beforehand.”
That is very good. Please find more hires and do what you know. Don’t talk about education reforms; you know nothing about it.
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 6:37 pm
Setting up private hospitals created a TWO-TIERED system where the rich gets the top rated medical care while the poor gets the second-rated care.
If private universities are established, the same happens to the poor students, leaving them with second rated education. The BIG danger is that this in turn limits their avenues for success creating vicious cycle.
For example, a the children of the TUK-TUK driver cannot afford to enter the top private universities. This makes them get the second rated education, making them nothing other than TUK-TUK drivers. This is a vicious cycle we must break to come out of the poverty.
It is paramount that we safeguard the public university system in Sri Lanka so that even the poorest has the opportunity to receive top class education and come out of the poverty. Accepting a limited private intake to public universities has tried and successful approach and is practiced around the world.
JustMal
July 5th, 2007 at 6:43 pm
The problem, Gajaba, is that we already have private universities. Many of them unaccredited, unregulated, possibly substandard - but private nevertheless. There are many institutions affiliated with foreign universities that provide Bachelors degrees and many ordinary middle class people whose children cannot get admitted to state universities due to the district quota system, pay their hard-earned money to educate their children in these places.
I see that you agree with me on the part privatisation of state unis. But that, as Tuk Tuk points out, is only a half measure solution. It is impossible to shut down all the existing private schools that offer foreign degrees. It is general Sri Lankan practice to ignore what we don’t want to deal with, so we do nothing and clamour on about the sanctity of free education.
Socialism has done nothing good to Sri Lanka. If anything, it has instilled an obnoxious sense of entitlement in many Sri Lankans and we expect the government to take care of everything - including educating us, giving us jobs and not increasing the price of petrol in accordance with global fluctuations. The JVP cleverly uses this mindset to rally on the Jeppa army. As we speak, there are dozens of Tharuna-Aruna graduates on a hunger strike in front of Isurupaya asking for jobs from the government.
This is a structural problem in Sri Lanka. Not meeting it head on will only perpetuate the whingeing. I remember having this same argument with my father when I was about 10 years old, and he only said that I don’t know about the real poor in Sri Lanka. We in Colombo are privileged. The real poor live in the villages, and a free education is the only way for them to break free of the poverty cycle.
I, as you, would not think the destruction of free education as progress. But the fact remains that it’s practically impossible to provide a quality tertiary education free of charge to all students. There is a great demand for private education and these unregulated, unaccredited institutions are already catering to that market. The only real solution is to formally recognise them, bring them up to the standards, and let them compete with state universities.
The response to private courses in state universities haven’t been as warm as you suggest. There have been instances of student-nurses even being beaten up by Jeppas in a university in the South for taking part in a fee paying course.
There are many students in state universities whose parents can actually afford to pay for their education. This is particularly true for medical and law faculties. So why not make them pay up? In my opinion, the free places for degree courses in state universities should only be offered to the poorest and most competent students, and there should be at least several times more fee-paying students in those courses. This is broader than simply having a few private diploma courses so that they can afford to pay for the lecturers.
Let’s not ignore the purple elephant in the room. Private universities already exist. No amount of chest thumping by IUSF is going to convince the government to shut them down. Look at the number of students who study medicine in former Soviet countries. Wouldn’t it be better for everyone if they could study in a private medical school in Sri Lanka with better standards and at a lower cost?
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 6:55 pm
JustMal,
You said: “In my opinion, the free places for degree courses in state universities should only be offered to the poorest and most competent students, and there should be at least several times more fee-paying students in those courses.”
Majority of Sri Lankans being poor, there is no way a quality education is provided for them if we aim to collect all the expenses from students. This is even true for developed nations. That is why they make substantial financial assistance available.
You must know that A$50,000 for a university degree SHOULD NOT not be a big deal for an average Australian because even doing a part time job, one can earn that amount in two years. What is more, Sri Lankans students who study in Australia find their full tuition fee and living expenses by doing part time jobs. So, for an Australian paying SUBSIDIESED local fees, it should not be a problem at all.
BUT, the Australian government makes available HECS and PELS and even give youth allowance to EVERY STUDENT. They want to ensure even the poorest can afford to get quality education.
So, there is no justification to the over simplified capitialist thought that “Go to hell with the poor, we want private universities”.
JustMal
July 5th, 2007 at 7:13 pm
You’ve got the point. Sri Lanka is a poor developing country. We cannot afford to provide a free education to all the poor students who think they deserve one. So let’s compromise and select only the smartest. But that doesn’t mean all the fee paying students have to be as competent. Life is unfair - everyone can’t get a free lunch just because they are hungry.
It is a big deal for most Australians after paying taxes, mortgage and car loan repayments. The Australian education system is practically dependent on full fee paying overseas students. Ours doesn’t have a similar source of income, hence the problem.
You keep on ignoring the purple elephant. Unless you burn them all down, there’s no way you can get rid of all the existing private colleges. The next best thing is to legally recognise them and have the UGC regulate them.
As someone else said on the Isurupaya thread, the standard of education in state universities is so bad that no one wants to employ them. Is this what you want for your “poor” students?
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 7:13 pm
(ctd)
It is true that private universities now exists. It is too early to feel their impact on the public universities. I can remind you that a few of my batch mates at University of Moratuwa joined private universities as lecturers turning down offers from the public universities because private universities offer higher salaries. The effect of this trend will not be felt for decades. When we start feeling it, it will be too late. Duds will be left at public universities. The majority poor students will have to learn from these while a minority rich students will get a quality service from private universities.
You must be aware that all public universities in Australia have a private student intake. This is not a “patch” solution, but a working solution. While the federal and state governments allocate funds to the public universities, universities are encouraged to raise funds by taking private students. I guess you were one of those ‘international students’ who paid the higher fees and SUBSIDIZED the education of Australian students.
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 7:29 pm
JustMal,
You said: “The Australian education system is practically dependent on full fee paying overseas students.”
So, what you accept is, even a DEVELOPED COUNTRY like Australia SUBSIDISES university education for the benefit of the local students.
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 7:34 pm
JUSTMAL,
You said “Sri Lanka is a poor developing country. We cannot afford to provide a free education to all the poor students who think they deserve one.”.
THIS IS COMPLETELY WRONG. The fundamental reason the government provide free education even to the poorest because we want to break the vicious cycle of poverty. The EDUCATION is their only way they can get out of the poverty. The unfortunate reality of our country is that vast majority of us are poor. You see how people complain about bread being expensive? Do you think these people can afford to pay university fees, if universities start charging them a fee?
If an average Australian find it hard to pay university fees, how can the vast majority of poor Sri Lankans who cannot even afford the price hike in bread can afford to pay university fees?
The only hope these people have to get out of the poverty is to get quality education but they are unable to pay for it. This is why public universities should accept a private intake and use this extra funds to develop the university system, so that even the poorest has the option receive the highest quality education if they are smart enough.
JustMal
July 5th, 2007 at 7:35 pm
Australia has more private universities than public ones. They are moving towards further privatisation, not the other way back.
It also has an annual budget surplus, which we don’t.
Isn’t it better that students whose parents work hard and earn money get a better education as opposed to only the rural poor getting a substandard one? This is the reality. Many of these students would be better off if they didn’t go to uni anyway. How many of their friends who couldn’t get admission to state unis are begging the government for jobs?
I don’t see how only duds would be left in state unis if they could afford to pay competitive salaries to academics with the money obtained from fee paying students. Private institutions do not have the prestige of the established state universities. If they can pay the same salary, I don’t see why anyone would want to leave.
It’s a good thing that you could at least compromise. Most Jeppas will not, hence the attacks on nurses and such.
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
JustMail,
You said: “I don’t see how only duds would be left in state unis if they could afford to pay competitive salaries to academics with the money obtained from fee paying students.”
You are confused with two postulates. If there is a fee paying student intake apart from the general free intake, there will not be a problem. However, if everyone is asked to pay a fee, the poor will be left out of the system. This creates the vicious cycle of poverty.
Do you realise that only duds are left in public service while the best is serving in the private industry? Why? Private industry pays betters and obviously the best join the private industry, leaving duds in the public service. This is true not only in Sri Lanka, but even in most developed countries.
Is this a big problem? No. Why? This does not result in the vicious cycle of poverty. This does not close the doors for the poor to become successful.
Just like the duds are left in the public service, duds will be left in public universities, if private universities are established.
How to counter this? Public universities have to accept private students just like the system practiced in many other countries. So, even the rich can pay and get a quality education while the poor, if smart enough, can get the same top quality education free. Everyone is a winner.
You said: “Private institutions do not have the prestige of the established state universities. If they can pay the same salary, I don’t see why anyone would want to leave.”
Public universities have a prestige now because they have good staff and get good students. If private universities operate for a period of time, they will acquire quality academics from public universities. Then the prestige is with private universities. Understand?
Gajaba
July 5th, 2007 at 8:15 pm
JustMal,
You said “It’s a good thing that you could at least compromise. Most Jeppas will not, hence the attacks on nurses and such”
If JVP is a problem to education, LTTE is even worse problem. JVP only oppose privatisation. LTTE not only kills and recruit students but intimidate and assassinate university lecturers. So, if you have a problem with JVP, you should have even bigger problem with the LTTE.
But this is not a forum to bash JVP or LTTE or UNP or SLFP. We are here to discuss viable reforms. Unfortunately, the author of this article seems to have some personal issues with the JVP that s/he solely concentrated on “Bashing JVP” which has no useful purpose.
JustMal
July 5th, 2007 at 8:41 pm
You’ve missed my point. I’m with you on the liberalisation of state unis as a partial solution. But that doesn’t justify not allowing any wholly private colleges or universities. Ideally, there should be state unis with free and fee paying places, and private ones with no free places. The public universities will have government funding in addition to students’ fees, so they shouldn’t have a problem retaining quality staff and competing for fresh talent.
“The effect of this trend will not be felt for decades. When we start feeling it, it will be too late. Duds will be left at public universities. The majority poor students will have to learn from these while a minority rich students will get a quality service from private universities.”
“Public universities have a prestige now because they have good staff and get good students. If private universities operate for a period of time, they will acquire quality academics from public universities. Then the prestige is with private universities. Understand?”
The issues you point out will certainly arise, but that will take decades. By then, with luck, we will be a developed country and the government will be in a position to pay for the poor students’ education in private universities like Australia does. Like in Australia, the repayments will be withheld from their paychecks once they are employed. What is the need for free public universities then if the poor students could get grants and loans from the government to study in private unis anyway?
Whatever its faults may be, the LTTE is no longer anti-Capitalist. JVP still is.
Gajaba
July 6th, 2007 at 6:12 am
JustMal,
You said: “The issues you point out will certainly arise, but that will take decades. ”
Unfortunately, we have not seen this success story in healthcare being privatised. The POOR cannot afford to be treated in a top quality private hospital.
When private universities are established, the same happens to the poor students, who are the VAST MAJORITY. What is the nett outcome? The POOR realises that they are a part of a vicious cycle. They will realise that the top quality university education and the top quality jobs are reserved for the RICH, while the POOR will have to satisfy with second rated healthcare, education and jobs.
IT IS THIS SITUATION THAT IS THE BREEDING GROUND FOR THE JVP. The JVP capitalises on this unsatisfaction of the vast majority of poor. The JVP proves to the POOR that the RICH always gets the best service due to their wealth, ensuring the POOR can never rise above.
Currently, this does NOT happen because the vast majority of poor students, if smart enough, have the opportunity get into the top universities and become successful. This is amply evident in top universities (eg. UoM, UoC, UoP Medical, UJP Management faculties). JVP enjoyes no support in these faculties. Why? Eventhough there are poor students in these faculties, they know they get the best education and can become successful soon. Now, if you want to close that opportnity by letting these universities ’second rated’ and making their life difficult, guess which political party they will be supporting next!
You said: “By then, with luck, we will be a developed country and the government will be in a position to pay for the poor students’ education in private universities like Australia does.”
This is a step that has to be taken AFTER we have developed to the level of Australia, not before.
I also would like to remind you another classic example from Australia, so that you can UNDERSTAND that even the CAPITALIST countries ensure the social equity by restricting the freedom of the rich. Have you heard of the NRL and AFL *SALARY CAP* system?
In short, to prevent RICH clubs getting all the good players by paying more, sports authorities have made compulsory salary restrictions, so that even poor clubs can buy good players. Read this from Wikipedia.
“Several sports leagues have made salary caps mandatory, both as a method of keeping overall costs down, and in order to balance the league so a WEALTHY TEAM CANNOT BECOME DOMINANT SIMPLY BY BUYING ALL THE TOP PLAYERS. ”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salary_cap
Get this example crystal clear. These countries are masters of CAPITALISM and FREE MARKET. Yet, they take these drastic steps to ensure that even the poor get the top quality service. If this happens in Sri Lanka, you will surely blame on the JVP, won’t you?
You will surely blame JVP for not understanding the FREE MARKET!
Gajaba
July 6th, 2007 at 6:19 am
JustMal,
You said: “Whatever its faults may be, the LTTE is no longer anti-Capitalist. JVP still is. ”
So, what your point? Damage LTTE is causing to the education is less signigicant? LTTE has killed so many university lecturers and continuing. LTTE has abudcted so many universities and still doing so. It is not only few “nurses” that LTTE attacked; rather, LTTE has beeb killing and abducting university sttdents and academics for years. LTTE uses Jaffna university to wage its terrorism.
So mister, if you criticise the damage caused by the JVP, LTTE is much much worse. But I see no complaint against the LTTE. In fact, you think LTTE is better than JVP because LTTE is not anti-capatalist! Is your agenda to promote education or to capitalism?
Well, this is a forum to promote education, so that everone, including the vast majority of the poor, get the top education
Do we want anymore evidence to realised that this is merely a JVP bashing exercise than finding better ways to improve the education?
JustMal
July 6th, 2007 at 7:43 am
If the poor want better healthcare, education, food and clothes, they should try to work hard and become rich - not blame the government. As I said, while these graduates have to beg the government for jobs, their degree-less friends and schoolmates are probably self employed or working for someone else and earning more money than they ever will.
Since you still don’t seem to understand my proposal, let me simply it for your benefit. I wonder which school you went to. Laugh.
* Public universities will have free places for poor students and a lot more private students.
* Private universities will only have fee paying students.
* Because public universities will have government funding in addition to fees from private students, they will be able to afford better academics, facilities and so on.
* That way, the poor students will still be able to get a quality education at no cost.
* In Melbourne, no private college can compete with public universities such as Melbourne, Monash and Deakin.
* In time, private universities will build up prestige, wealth etc and will come up to the same standard as public ones.
* By then - and this process will take decades as you have conceded - Sri Lanka would be in a position to pay for poor students to study in private universities.
* There would be no need for public universities at all.
I didn’t know that LTTE has abducted a whole university. That is indeed cause for concern if it is true.
Australia is rich enough to afford these socialist luxuries. All these first world countries developed because of unrestrained free market capitalism. Welfare comes after the development phase.
Tuk Tuk Driver
July 6th, 2007 at 7:49 am
I think from the verbal barrage of Gajaba (I have not intention of getting into debate with people like this) he is totally unaware of the realityies in the market place.
He thinks;
(a) The state can provide ‘pin buth’ education to all (which no other country does)
(b) Sri Lanka has (like USA, UK, Australia etc) a highly developed industrialised sector that can subsidise ‘pin buth education’
(c) Education to all can be provided from temporary half measures like leaving state universities to intake students for free
Gajaba is a good example for the backward negative thinking of JVP. I think he has some sort of degree (obviously from a local university, anybody who studied abroad cannot be that stupid) but does not know even the basics and go on presenting his stupid thinking.
It is also clear what he does not know;
(a) Private universities have never resulted in expanding the rich-poor gap (There is no empirical data and this is only the thinking of the frogs in the JVP well)
(b) Market economy is a reality of today’s society
(c) What we today needs are reforms of larger scale and not ‘kirala moodi’ solutions
Just like a typical jeppa he gets very emotional and easily neglects the facts.
I do not blame Gajaba. I blame the education system. It is this low quality ‘pin buth’ education system like ours that produce stupid people like him.
Tuk Tuk Driver
July 6th, 2007 at 7:55 am
One more clarification.
I have fundamentally nothing against state universities making a private intake.
As I have pointed out that too is a form of private investments in education.
However, there are two (minor?) differences in this model.
(a) It is a cross subsidy. ‘Private’ students subsidise ‘public’ students. (I think taxing students in this way is not fair. Why should one student be taxed and the other is not? Only JVP can think of such illogical situations)
(b) It has its own limitations in numbers. We cannot address all the issues in education in this ‘patch’ solutions.
So there is no big harm continuing this practice but education reforms at larger scale is a must.
Gajaba
July 6th, 2007 at 10:21 am
JustMal,
* I do understand your proposal to enact private universities as well as private intake to public universities. THIS SHOULD ONLY BE DONE once the private intake to public universities are formalised and put into practice successfully.
* Australian public universities can compete with private universities because they get vast amount of public funds from goverments. Can Sri Lankan goverment provide that level of funds?
Q) Are Sri Lankan private hospitals are as good as public hospitals? the same goes for public universities when private universities are enacted.
Gajaba
July 6th, 2007 at 10:29 am
TUK-TUK,
[It is a cross subsidy. ‘Private’ students subsidise ‘public’ students. (I think taxing students in this way is not fair. Why should one student be taxed and the other is not? Only JVP can think of such illogical situations)]
You are a born idiot who cannot understand that the whole TAX system ALL the countries practice must be ILLOGICAL. Those who work hard and earn more pay higher tax, which in turn goes to subsidise the poor ALL AROUND THE WORLD. Perhaps, according to your tunnel vision, the whole world is illogical - you are the smart man!
IDIOT, why the hell Capitalist USA, Europe and Australia give farm susbsidies? Isn’t this ILLOGICAL? May be, they are not as smart as your are?
Gong harako, all around the world, the income taxed from the rich is spent in the poor so that the whole society benefits overall. You must be a burnt out light who cannot never understand this.
Tuk Tuk Driver
July 6th, 2007 at 10:43 am
Gajaba,
I can educate you, but are you willing to pay?
If not do not expect me to give you free lessons. Go to a ‘pin buth’ university and learn.
Tuk Tuk Driver
July 6th, 2007 at 10:53 am
It is not normal for me, but I engaged in such a long debate with this individual called Gajaba for two good reasons.
First, he acted as an exact specimen of a ‘jeppa’ - stupid, frog in the well thinking, ‘patch’ solutions, calling names etc. (He has an interesting vocabulary, probably picked up from his parents) So it was a good opportunity to illustrate a ‘jeppa’ to others. Now we know the type of people we have to deal with in this issue.
Secondly, this man is also a good illustration how badly our education system needs reforms. He shows his complete ignorance of the market system, subsidies and reforms. (And thinks he does) Do we need any better examples to convince that we need to improve the education system of this country?
We should thank Gajaba for providing these opportunities.
Gajaba
July 6th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
TUKTUK,
I did not have any sinister motives to contradict yourself and make fun of you; but you amply proved you are nothing but a FROG IN THE WELL. You have no knowledge in what is happening around the world. Your TUK-TUK is the world to you.
It is quite funny to contradict your “Subsidy is illogical” by taking examples from the leading capitalist countries around the world like USA, Europe and Australia. Are you still thinking USA, Europe and Australia are not as smart as you are? These countries, eventhought the leaders of capitalism, still allocate substantial subsidies to the farmers. You being a FRONG IN THE WELL, has never heard of such a thing and talk like a complete idiot saying “SUBSIDY IS NOT FAIR AND ILLOGICAL”.
Thank you TUK-TUK Driver - you showed how uneducated you are.
Gajaba
July 6th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
TUK-TUK,
One does not to put any effort make fun of you; you yourself provide ample evidence to show that your statements contradict yourself.
Just take look at how you contradict yourself.
From Message 67:
QUOTE-1: “I have fundamentally nothing against state universities making a private intake.”
QUOTE-2: “It is a cross subsidy. ‘Private’ students subsidise ‘public’ students. (I think taxing students in this way is not fair. Why should one student be taxed and the other is not? ONLY JVP CAN THINK OF SUCH ILLOGICAL SITUATIONS)”
First you say you have NOTHING AGAINST a private intake to public universities.
Then you say this is wrong and you you yourself are illogical as a JVPer!!
IDIOT, if this so *wrong* and *unfair* as you say, how come you have fundamentally nothing against such an UNFAIR and ILLOGICAL system?
What a contradiction!
Mister, at least accept this now. You are none other than the author of this article. You know nothing about education reforms or how education is handled in other countries. All your know is illogical JVP bashing, which has no use in a non-political forum like this. All of your messages showes onething - you have personal issues with JVP. Go find somewhere else. This is not a place to satisfy your cheap political issues.
Now that you poor article has been torn into smithereens, don’t get upset. Study more and one day you can write a useful article.
JustMal
July 6th, 2007 at 7:14 pm
I think mine is the least radical proposal.
Gajaba: It’s not pragmatic to shut down all the existing private unis until public universities are fully restructured. I’m glad that you agree with me on some points. The most pragmatic solution is to bring the private unis under the perview of UGC and make sure that they adhere to proper standards.
Tuktuk: I’m not a fan of welfare or “pinbuth” either, but for the time being I don’t think it’s possible to completely scrap the existing mechanism just like that. As Gajaba says, JVP and the likes would use this to mobilise the Jeppa masses to wreak havoc. So perhaps we should promote private unis and gradually privatise public unis while still allowing some degree of cross subsidisation as a compromise. In time, this could be totally done away with when the government would be in a position to grant loans to eligible poor students who would pay them back with interest after they get jobs. Then there would be no “pinbuth” at all.
We really need to change the attitude of these people. We must fight back instead of giving in whenever they go on hunger strikes asking for free this or that. Socialism has rotted this society to the core.